We're a pretty mixed up society in a lot of ways. In a parallel vein, the Ministry of Education now says that teachers can't fail students for plagiarizing essays because plagiarizing is a 'behaviour', whatever that means. Kids caught red-handed cheating in this way are now allowed to...rewrite the essay. And the take home lesson is...give cheating a whirl. If it doesn't pan out, you can always write the essay. Or try cheating again!--ed.
How many principals does RSS currently have? If the two high schools were merged there would be great savings just in the administrative staff alone not to mention heating and lighting.
I don't buy your example that if students leave the district...what you're saying is that if families left Rossland because RSS closed that there would be a loss of 9000 dollars per student.
But the rest of the district would continue on, minus the expenses associated with an unsustainable school.
How many more "pilot" or make work projects have to be undertaken at RSS? There have been several and it still has not significantly improved the future enrollment numbers.
Students can be taught in one high school. I think its the parents that have lost perspective. -fp
There some glaring problems in the School District. These problems have been around for quite some time. As a taxpayer I want to see that my tax dollars are spent wisely.
I could have told you years ago that enrollment was declining and that based on current funding requirements, something had to give. If RSS is not closed next year, it will be the year after due to unsustainable enrollment.
I don't want to see the backroom deals resurface just to postpone the inevitable.
I don't want to see good money thrown after bad into fixing up a high school that cannot sustain its enrollment.
Why should schools that are operating at full capacity be closed just to satisfy you? Because something will have to give. If its not the weak link RSS, it'll have to be others that are not weak links.
I didn't claim I am missing anything. Who is asking for more? In the major economic center, Trail, there is only one public elementary school. Who is asking for more? It's not Trail.
You're grasping at straws trying to make untenable arguments.
If you had a business and you hired a good employee who just happened to move to Nelson, would you be sympathetic when that person couldn't show up for work because of distance issues? Would you pay the person anyway? I doubt it.
Its the employee's responsibility to show up for work regardless of where he or she chooses to live.
My point is that if you choose to live where you live, then you also put up with the consequences. That may include sending your kids to a high school 10 minutes away, just like Fruitvale & Montrose. - fp
Are terms that are used to describe the School District. Moreover, terms, such as Lower Columbia, are also used for economic development. I believe Rossland is an active partner in the Lower Columbia Development Team.
You continually miss the point. Sigh. RSS is the weak link. You believe that it's OK to close Webster Elementary in Warfield, Glenmerry Elementary in Trail and Castlegar Primary in Castlegar. All to keep RSS going.
You likely cheered when it was proposed that Webster and Glenmerry be merged into one large elementary school, MacLean's merging with RSS, yet all the while gnashing your teeth over RSS merging with Crowe.
Personally, I think we should look really hard at Vince Morelli's idea to merge with Kootenay Lake school district. With the ministry funding based on FTE's, small districts like ours just can't make it work without cutting to the bone, and it's only going to get worse as enrollment declines. In this instance, bigger can definitely be better, and I'm certain we can find a lot of duplication in the administrative/board end that can be eliminated. There is also the benefit of receiving more funding from the ministry because of their distance formula -- schools that are located a certain distance away from the board office get more funding. We have no geographical boundaries separating us. It seems like a very sensible option -- one that could save us an awful lot of money, without ripping apart communities.
North end, south end - how very clean and simple that argument is. Let me dirty it up a little.
SD20 contains three cities, and many, many smaller villages and other communities. Each of the three cities has a high school.
FP, why can you not respect that Rossland is not just a bedroom community of Trail? Rossland is a proud little city, with a long, strong history of achievement. We aren't just a subdivision that shuts down from 9 to 5 daily while everyone leaves to work in Trail. My husband and I both work in Rossland, and there are many, many others like us, who have no more connection to Trail than we do to Castlegar or Nelson.
Before you go nuts and start calling me a Rossland snob, I am not insulting Trail, Castlegar or Nelson. They are all excellent communities -- I have also lived in Nelson and Castlegar, and I have family in Trail. But Rossland is our home, which we chose to live in, because it has everything we want in a community, which includes schools our children can walk to. We can live anywhere we want (and have lived in several other places), and we did not move here to send our kids out of town.
Kyra, while you may think that I missed your point, I think it may be the other way around.
I started off by saying that I appreciated the article, and the main point. I really did like the article over all. I recognized that you were speaking in favour of universal rights.
But my point is that the pervasiveness of incorrect statistics makes it impossible to move ahead. While you may support universal rights, I couldn't help but get the impression that you thought men were more violent. You were the first person who derailed your own argument by posting statistics about the gender differences in an article that would have been much stronger without even mentioning statistics. And then you used it to argue that men need better access to mental care facilities (while that may be true, it is unrelated to the domestic violence issue). Men need equal access to mental health care, and that can be clearly understood through basic human rights without making the suggestion that it is because men are more mentally unstable as evidenced by domestic violence statistics.
The last statistic I saw, in a video with Erin Pizzey, was 1 male death for each 2 female deaths due to Domestic Violence. While that is more, I would say it is certainly pretty close.
And I hope you take this opportunity to re-read the last section of my earlier reply, because I think you may have skipped over it. I specifically said that it was not an issue of who is the baddest guy. I definitely made it clear that I did not view any skewed statistics as being "women being worse than men" or vice versa.
Like I originally said - I liked the article. I appreciated your efforts.
Sure, skiing and mtn biking are not the end-all be-all...but they are part of the enticement package for people wanting to move here to live. It's no secret we have no shortage of family doctors in the region, and no secret where most of them live, and no secret how hard many people have worked to recruit them, and other related health professionals to the region....for the benefit of everyone who lives here. And yes, they wouldn't be here if it weren't for Teck and KBRH...but I don't think all would have moved here if it weren't for the opportunity to live in a quiet town with good air quality (or at least the perception of that) and a great mountain culture.
Rossland is truly unique in that it still maintains the small town charm of a mountain town without all the glitz of places like Canmore. (I'm not saying Trail doesn't have great qualities also...just different ones that appeal in different ways...which is what makes this area so great - variety).
I guessing that the longer one lives here, the easier it is to take everything the region has to offer for granted. It's easy to lose sight of how someone not from here might view the area. I honestly don't believe Greater Trail would be where it is today without Rossland, and I don't believe Rossland would be where it is without Greater Trail.
....and has been shown to have no negative impact on academic achievement, but will have the potential to save anywhere from $500000 - 1.2 million annually according to various estimates. (wages, transportation and reduced substitute teacher needs, and savings in reduced sick time). Maybe this could be piloted at RSS first?
And fp, you're trying to misquote me again. I don't necessarily feel students won't like going to Crowe. I just think we're barking up the wrong tree by pointing the finger at RSS. There's many reasons why it could be considered an asset to the district (as is Crowe). Neither is superior to the other in a global sense (but one environment might be better for some students than others in some situations). My point is that both schools add up to a better total package in trying to attract new students to the district....and maintain diversity in educational offerings. Just as with financial investments, it's not wise to throw all your eggs into one basket.
What about reducing the number of administrative staff? How about going down to 5 or 7 trustees elected at large? What about finding ways to increase revenue to the district? What about considering the fiscal losses to the district if students are lost to private schools, or if families leave, or don't move here in the first place? (that's around $9000 per student if I remember correctly....)
Um...of course bullying can happen anywhere, and it could also happen at RSS, although smaller schools do tend to have less of it. I'm not saying there's not an anti-bullying policy. I'm just giving an example of one of the many cirumstances that can lead a student to wish to change schools...to try to illustrate why there's value in students having choice in where they are educated.
that students won't like going to school at Crowe? What if they won't have a choice? How do you prepare them for that eventuality?
The School District is facing a million dollar annual shortfall. It's not allowed to run a deficit. If it does, it has to restructure and pay back the debt.
So, do trustees cut programs, teachers, or what, just to satisfy Rossland? It's only 10 minutes to Crowe. Students from Montrose and Fruitvale (in greater numbers than Rossland) make the trip everyday.
What can't you understand about fiscal responsibility? If you can't afford your rent or your mortgage and you've been struggling for a number of years trying to make ends meet, what do you do? - fp
However, if you read my other reply, I indicated that a newer building (maybe 12 yrs old) budgeted over $2 million dollars just to upgrade and retrofit the HVAC system. This building is also much smaller than RSS.
There are several other major repairs needed for RSS including asbestos. The costs escalate when you start renovations.
4 mil or 6 mil, it's still money the District doesn't have. It's already facing an annual deficit of $1 million. The School District is not authorized to run a deficit. If it does, it has to restructure its debt and pay it off somehow.
So, either increase taxes or cut programs. Neither is desirable. It has a detrimental effect on the majority of students in the District as well as taxpayers.
In BC, I don't think the School District can go to the public and ask for a levy, particularly for one small school that is only 10 minutes from another high school.
I gather you are not from BC or you wouldn't find these construction costs over the top. -fp
which is exactly why Rossland and our region is in a position to grow. I didn't say other towns villages don't necessarily embrace an active, outdoor lifesyle. But everyone knows Rossland is known for being the mtn bike capital of BC, and has a world class network of trails that don't require getting in a car to travel to....and a ski hill nearby, and one of the best nordic clubs in the province. This is prime marketing material for a certain sector of population. We can't deny the benefit of this. Just as we can't deny the benefit of Teck as the major employer here.
It "may" cost this and it "may" cost that. FP, do you really consider this worth referencing? I respect Mr. Vogel's opinion as it was, for the most part, well thought out, but it drives me crazy when folks toss construction numbers around so freely when they really mean nothing at all!
Not shocked at all. Didn't say there weren't high achieveing graduates from there. It's a great school. I just don't see why there's so much resentment about RSS. The operational budget to operate it is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall budget. Grants for capital projects come up from time to time. The biggest expense - teacher salaries, are not more expenseive at RSS as student -teacher ratios are the same as elsewhere. Perhaps SD20 has a refresher course on reading comprehension.
Not all students are served best by small schools and not all students are served best by large schools. This is not molly coddling. It's about helping them graduate because they actually like going to school, and helping them achieve their best possible potential. It's about so many things that I just don't know if you have the capacity to understand, fp. So I won't further waste my time.
Not everyone tries harder when they feel smaller and weaker. You might want to offer your advice about "trying harder when you feel smaller and weaker" to the parents of the teenager on the coast who recently committed suicide because of unresolved bullying issues.
FP I think you're missing my point. And if you look at my other posts, you would notice that I don't actually live in Rossland. But I will be honest, and tell you that I could have found work in my field pretty much anywhere...and I chose this region for the skiing, mtn biking, climate and diversity. I'd like to think also for the respect and tolerance of people to different viewpoints....
Without Rossland, I would have been checking out the East Kootenays, north Okanagan or Nelson area instead.
I never said Rossland could exist without the employment services of Trail. What I'm saying is that a community like Rossland helps to draw the necessary people to the area to fill the jobs...a certain sector of the population looking for the kind of lifestyle that Rossland seems to embrace. And remember, there's lots of self-employed entrepreneurs there also having a significant impact on the region's economy....who don't need a major employer.
Amber Hayes
Kyra Hoggan
Dr. Brenda Gill
Rossland Telegraph
We're a pretty mixed up society in a lot of ways. In a parallel vein, the Ministry of Education now says that teachers can't fail students for plagiarizing essays because plagiarizing is a 'behaviour', whatever that means. Kids caught red-handed cheating in this way are now allowed to...rewrite the essay. And the take home lesson is...give cheating a whirl. If it doesn't pan out, you can always write the essay. Or try cheating again!--ed.
How many principals does RSS currently have? If the two high schools were merged there would be great savings just in the administrative staff alone not to mention heating and lighting.
I don't buy your example that if students leave the district...what you're saying is that if families left Rossland because RSS closed that there would be a loss of 9000 dollars per student.
But the rest of the district would continue on, minus the expenses associated with an unsustainable school.
How many more "pilot" or make work projects have to be undertaken at RSS? There have been several and it still has not significantly improved the future enrollment numbers.
Students can be taught in one high school. I think its the parents that have lost perspective. -fp
ripped off?
There some glaring problems in the School District. These problems have been around for quite some time. As a taxpayer I want to see that my tax dollars are spent wisely.
I could have told you years ago that enrollment was declining and that based on current funding requirements, something had to give. If RSS is not closed next year, it will be the year after due to unsustainable enrollment.
I don't want to see the backroom deals resurface just to postpone the inevitable.
I don't want to see good money thrown after bad into fixing up a high school that cannot sustain its enrollment.
Why should schools that are operating at full capacity be closed just to satisfy you? Because something will have to give. If its not the weak link RSS, it'll have to be others that are not weak links.
I didn't claim I am missing anything. Who is asking for more? In the major economic center, Trail, there is only one public elementary school. Who is asking for more? It's not Trail.
You're grasping at straws trying to make untenable arguments.
If you had a business and you hired a good employee who just happened to move to Nelson, would you be sympathetic when that person couldn't show up for work because of distance issues? Would you pay the person anyway? I doubt it.
Its the employee's responsibility to show up for work regardless of where he or she chooses to live.
My point is that if you choose to live where you live, then you also put up with the consequences. That may include sending your kids to a high school 10 minutes away, just like Fruitvale & Montrose. - fp
Are terms that are used to describe the School District. Moreover, terms, such as Lower Columbia, are also used for economic development. I believe Rossland is an active partner in the Lower Columbia Development Team.
You continually miss the point. Sigh. RSS is the weak link. You believe that it's OK to close Webster Elementary in Warfield, Glenmerry Elementary in Trail and Castlegar Primary in Castlegar. All to keep RSS going.
You likely cheered when it was proposed that Webster and Glenmerry be merged into one large elementary school, MacLean's merging with RSS, yet all the while gnashing your teeth over RSS merging with Crowe.
There is a disconnect in your logic. - fp
use that formula to its advantage. Leave the board office in the south end and claim distance hardship for its schools.
Not a good enough reason to turn the school district into another IHA Kelowna based head office.
Why stop at Nelson? Why not include Grand Forks, Beaverdell?
Mr Morelli's idea is loopy to say the least. -fp
Personally, I think we should look really hard at Vince Morelli's idea to merge with Kootenay Lake school district. With the ministry funding based on FTE's, small districts like ours just can't make it work without cutting to the bone, and it's only going to get worse as enrollment declines. In this instance, bigger can definitely be better, and I'm certain we can find a lot of duplication in the administrative/board end that can be eliminated. There is also the benefit of receiving more funding from the ministry because of their distance formula -- schools that are located a certain distance away from the board office get more funding. We have no geographical boundaries separating us. It seems like a very sensible option -- one that could save us an awful lot of money, without ripping apart communities.
North end, south end - how very clean and simple that argument is. Let me dirty it up a little.
SD20 contains three cities, and many, many smaller villages and other communities. Each of the three cities has a high school.
FP, why can you not respect that Rossland is not just a bedroom community of Trail? Rossland is a proud little city, with a long, strong history of achievement. We aren't just a subdivision that shuts down from 9 to 5 daily while everyone leaves to work in Trail. My husband and I both work in Rossland, and there are many, many others like us, who have no more connection to Trail than we do to Castlegar or Nelson.
Before you go nuts and start calling me a Rossland snob, I am not insulting Trail, Castlegar or Nelson. They are all excellent communities -- I have also lived in Nelson and Castlegar, and I have family in Trail. But Rossland is our home, which we chose to live in, because it has everything we want in a community, which includes schools our children can walk to. We can live anywhere we want (and have lived in several other places), and we did not move here to send our kids out of town.
Kyra, while you may think that I missed your point, I think it may be the other way around.
I started off by saying that I appreciated the article, and the main point. I really did like the article over all. I recognized that you were speaking in favour of universal rights.
But my point is that the pervasiveness of incorrect statistics makes it impossible to move ahead. While you may support universal rights, I couldn't help but get the impression that you thought men were more violent. You were the first person who derailed your own argument by posting statistics about the gender differences in an article that would have been much stronger without even mentioning statistics. And then you used it to argue that men need better access to mental care facilities (while that may be true, it is unrelated to the domestic violence issue). Men need equal access to mental health care, and that can be clearly understood through basic human rights without making the suggestion that it is because men are more mentally unstable as evidenced by domestic violence statistics.
The last statistic I saw, in a video with Erin Pizzey, was 1 male death for each 2 female deaths due to Domestic Violence. While that is more, I would say it is certainly pretty close.
And I hope you take this opportunity to re-read the last section of my earlier reply, because I think you may have skipped over it. I specifically said that it was not an issue of who is the baddest guy. I definitely made it clear that I did not view any skewed statistics as being "women being worse than men" or vice versa.
Like I originally said - I liked the article. I appreciated your efforts.
Hey, let's all meet for coffee.
Sure, skiing and mtn biking are not the end-all be-all...but they are part of the enticement package for people wanting to move here to live. It's no secret we have no shortage of family doctors in the region, and no secret where most of them live, and no secret how hard many people have worked to recruit them, and other related health professionals to the region....for the benefit of everyone who lives here. And yes, they wouldn't be here if it weren't for Teck and KBRH...but I don't think all would have moved here if it weren't for the opportunity to live in a quiet town with good air quality (or at least the perception of that) and a great mountain culture.
Rossland is truly unique in that it still maintains the small town charm of a mountain town without all the glitz of places like Canmore. (I'm not saying Trail doesn't have great qualities also...just different ones that appeal in different ways...which is what makes this area so great - variety).
I guessing that the longer one lives here, the easier it is to take everything the region has to offer for granted. It's easy to lose sight of how someone not from here might view the area. I honestly don't believe Greater Trail would be where it is today without Rossland, and I don't believe Rossland would be where it is without Greater Trail.
....and has been shown to have no negative impact on academic achievement, but will have the potential to save anywhere from $500000 - 1.2 million annually according to various estimates. (wages, transportation and reduced substitute teacher needs, and savings in reduced sick time). Maybe this could be piloted at RSS first?
And fp, you're trying to misquote me again. I don't necessarily feel students won't like going to Crowe. I just think we're barking up the wrong tree by pointing the finger at RSS. There's many reasons why it could be considered an asset to the district (as is Crowe). Neither is superior to the other in a global sense (but one environment might be better for some students than others in some situations). My point is that both schools add up to a better total package in trying to attract new students to the district....and maintain diversity in educational offerings. Just as with financial investments, it's not wise to throw all your eggs into one basket.
What about reducing the number of administrative staff? How about going down to 5 or 7 trustees elected at large? What about finding ways to increase revenue to the district? What about considering the fiscal losses to the district if students are lost to private schools, or if families leave, or don't move here in the first place? (that's around $9000 per student if I remember correctly....)
Um...of course bullying can happen anywhere, and it could also happen at RSS, although smaller schools do tend to have less of it. I'm not saying there's not an anti-bullying policy. I'm just giving an example of one of the many cirumstances that can lead a student to wish to change schools...to try to illustrate why there's value in students having choice in where they are educated.
that students won't like going to school at Crowe? What if they won't have a choice? How do you prepare them for that eventuality?
The School District is facing a million dollar annual shortfall. It's not allowed to run a deficit. If it does, it has to restructure and pay back the debt.
So, do trustees cut programs, teachers, or what, just to satisfy Rossland? It's only 10 minutes to Crowe. Students from Montrose and Fruitvale (in greater numbers than Rossland) make the trip everyday.
What can't you understand about fiscal responsibility? If you can't afford your rent or your mortgage and you've been struggling for a number of years trying to make ends meet, what do you do? - fp
that School District 20 allows bullying and that it doesn't have a anti-bullying policy or that it doesn't deal effectively with bullying?
Have you ever been made aware of such a case in SD 20?
Bullying can happen anywhere, whatever the size of the school. Why do you believe it happens only in 800 size school? - fp
who have always lived here know. We're difficult to get to in winter. Growth just for winter skiing and summer mountain biking is limited.
The ski hill has been here, for, gosh, at least 60 years and it's not much different today, given the span of time.
Few people who buy ski chalets actually live in Rossland year round. They don't enroll children in school either. - fp
However, if you read my other reply, I indicated that a newer building (maybe 12 yrs old) budgeted over $2 million dollars just to upgrade and retrofit the HVAC system. This building is also much smaller than RSS.
There are several other major repairs needed for RSS including asbestos. The costs escalate when you start renovations.
4 mil or 6 mil, it's still money the District doesn't have. It's already facing an annual deficit of $1 million. The School District is not authorized to run a deficit. If it does, it has to restructure its debt and pay it off somehow.
So, either increase taxes or cut programs. Neither is desirable. It has a detrimental effect on the majority of students in the District as well as taxpayers.
In BC, I don't think the School District can go to the public and ask for a levy, particularly for one small school that is only 10 minutes from another high school.
I gather you are not from BC or you wouldn't find these construction costs over the top. -fp
That you may not want to repeat the lesson learned in the destruction of Crowe by tearing down RSS?
which is exactly why Rossland and our region is in a position to grow. I didn't say other towns villages don't necessarily embrace an active, outdoor lifesyle. But everyone knows Rossland is known for being the mtn bike capital of BC, and has a world class network of trails that don't require getting in a car to travel to....and a ski hill nearby, and one of the best nordic clubs in the province. This is prime marketing material for a certain sector of population. We can't deny the benefit of this. Just as we can't deny the benefit of Teck as the major employer here.
It "may" cost this and it "may" cost that. FP, do you really consider this worth referencing? I respect Mr. Vogel's opinion as it was, for the most part, well thought out, but it drives me crazy when folks toss construction numbers around so freely when they really mean nothing at all!
Not shocked at all. Didn't say there weren't high achieveing graduates from there. It's a great school. I just don't see why there's so much resentment about RSS. The operational budget to operate it is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall budget. Grants for capital projects come up from time to time. The biggest expense - teacher salaries, are not more expenseive at RSS as student -teacher ratios are the same as elsewhere. Perhaps SD20 has a refresher course on reading comprehension.
Not all students are served best by small schools and not all students are served best by large schools. This is not molly coddling. It's about helping them graduate because they actually like going to school, and helping them achieve their best possible potential. It's about so many things that I just don't know if you have the capacity to understand, fp. So I won't further waste my time.
Not everyone tries harder when they feel smaller and weaker. You might want to offer your advice about "trying harder when you feel smaller and weaker" to the parents of the teenager on the coast who recently committed suicide because of unresolved bullying issues.
have expensive real estate. As an entrepreneur you would also look very carefully at your overhead.
What is the lifestyle that Rossland embraces that the other towns and villages (according to you) do not possess? -fp
http://www.sd20.bc.ca/planning-for-the-future/articles/planning-for-the-...
Vogel submission March 1...read the whole thing if you like. - fp
I'm curious, what is your source for this number? I would love to review it.
FP I think you're missing my point. And if you look at my other posts, you would notice that I don't actually live in Rossland. But I will be honest, and tell you that I could have found work in my field pretty much anywhere...and I chose this region for the skiing, mtn biking, climate and diversity. I'd like to think also for the respect and tolerance of people to different viewpoints....
Without Rossland, I would have been checking out the East Kootenays, north Okanagan or Nelson area instead.
I never said Rossland could exist without the employment services of Trail. What I'm saying is that a community like Rossland helps to draw the necessary people to the area to fill the jobs...a certain sector of the population looking for the kind of lifestyle that Rossland seems to embrace. And remember, there's lots of self-employed entrepreneurs there also having a significant impact on the region's economy....who don't need a major employer.
teachers, nurses, professors, mathematicians, etc. All past graduates in the late 60s from a large Crowe high school. Shocked?
Competition and a strong work ethic goes a long way towards success in the big world.
You see, when you feel smaller and weaker, you try harder. Please don't molly coddle your kids. It doesn't help them in the real world. - fp